this post is joined with my post of Friday 10 June 2016 London Council Overcharged Tenants for Water
Land-lord Camden council has sent me a letter [received 15 June 2017] saying they will start legal action against me if I don't pay the arrears of the water charges I stopped paying around Dec 2016.
I think I have a good enough reason for stopping paying the water charges and continuing to not pay it until the landlord gives me and other tenants back the money they owe us because of overcharging us. Plus I think they need to set a new and lawful charge [ if they haven't done so already but they haven't said so].
The water charge isn't the rent, its a seperate charge to the rent yet they call it rent. Its a service charge.
I have ten days from date of letter [9 June 2017]. It says to call them if I have financial or other difficulties. I contacted them a while ago and explained why I haven't paid the charge. They didn't reply but sent the threatening letter instead. Business as usual for the housing department.
Plus all these years I have had to put up with the noise here and the landlord won't do anything about it that I'm aware of, and estate officier comes to my flat makes 'promises' then goes away and I don't hear anything about it from her again. She could see what a state I was in. Was it just lies to try and butter me up?
Though I feel anxious at the thought of having to go to court and the risk it entails I need to hold my nerve on this.
I await the court case.
23 Aug 2017
Latest letter dated 15 August 2017 is NOTICE OF SEEKING POSSESSION [not to begin before 24 Sept 2017] which I sent them an email in reply to and am waiting for an email reply back. This letter came very shortly after a message from someone in the council left on my home phone answering machine. They haven't been helpful at all to me with the difficulties i'm having, which doesn't come as a surprise.
They will refer my case to the councils legal team if I don't coff up the claimed arrears.
This issue isn't only about me its about all unmetered camden council tenants as well as other london boroughs tenants.
As well as me having difficulties with the water charge payments I also have difficulties with communicating verbally with camden council and find it a lot easier to do so in writing. I would prefer to avoid court but rent support won't reply to emails.
25 August 2017
Came across the following from http://www.dpglaw.co.uk/hundreds-thousands-overcharged-water/
"A High Court ruling has established that hundreds of thousands of tenants have been overcharged for water and sewerage. Lawyers say that affected tenants will be entitled to refunds running to hundreds if not thousands of pounds.
As reported by the BBC, the test case was brought by Kim Jones, a tenant of Southwark Council.
Along with 37,000 other tenants in Southwark, Ms Jones’ tenancy agreement required to pay charges for water and sewerage to her landlord. The amount Ms Jones was required to pay her landlord was significantly more than the amount the landlord was required to pay Thames Water.
The High Court ruled that this was unlawful because it breached the Water Resale Orders, which prohibit water and sewerage from being resold at a profit.
Whilst initially criticising the decision, Southwark Council has now announced that it will not appeal and will being repaying to tenants some of the unlawful charges.
Ms Jones’ solicitor, Gareth Mitchell, of Deighton Pierce Glynn, said:
“Thames Water has confirmed that it has similar arrangements with 69 local authorities and housing associations throughout its area covering 375,000 households. For households in occupation since 2001, they will have been overcharged around £700 to £1,000.
Southwark Council’s announcement that it will only make a partial refund to the 37,000 tenants affected within its borough is unacceptable. These are low income tenants for whom this is a significant amount of money. For many years, Southwark concealed from its tenants the true nature of its relationship with Thames Water. It is not only morally unacceptable for Southwark Council to retain these unlawful charges, the legal basis for their approach is doubtful and further litigation is very likely if they do not relent.
As for the other local authorities and housing associations affected by this issue, we are expecting them to make contact with their tenants over the coming weeks and to indicate what arrangements they will be making to repay the unlawful charges.
However, the impact of the judgment does not stop there.
The judge also decided that between April 2002 and April 2010 Thames Water should have billed the owners of rented accommodation for water and sewerage, rather than tenants. Whereas Thames Water’s evidence in the High Court was that throughout this period it had billed and recovered charges from tenants, rather than landlords.
Thames Water has not yet announced what arrangements it will be making to reimburse these tenants, all of whom were incorrectly charged hundreds of pounds each year during the 2002 to 2010 period.”
BBC London TV news report on 25 April 2016 (lead item) see: here.
DPG’s Gareth Mitchell was also interviewed about the case on Vanessa Feltz’s breakfast show on 25 April 2016 at 07:35hrs (35 mins in); with Southwark council’s response at 08.21hrs (1 hour 21 mins in): here.
An article about the implications of the case will appear in the May 2016 edition of Legal Action.
8 Sept 2017
Rent officer has passed me onto the councils Financial Inclusion officers who sent me a letter and who I emailed and await their reply.
The Notice they sent to me is a sham.
4 Nov 2017
No word yet from the Financial Inclusion officers I sent an email to about the letter they sent to me.
7 Nov 2017
Someone from the Rent service phoned me yesterday and I explained a bit why I was with- holding the water charge and that I had replied via email to every letter I received but haven't had any email replies back. I don't know what happens next will wait and see.
11 Feb 2018
Not heard anything about this since 7 Nov 2017.
related to this: Housing repairs department - don't get me started on the shenanigans going on there.
30 May 2018
Letter received and phone call from rent officer - 'am i going to start paying [my landlord camden council] the water charge' 'no, no' i says. I will though as suggested contact thames water and ask about a water metre and paying them directly for my water and get back to rent officer.
I'd rather pay the water company and their shareholders than Camden 'council' and their ...... well whats the right word?
3 July 2018
I haven't been able to contact Thames Water as suggested by the landlords agent, and which I agreed to. I tried really I did I just been pre-occupied with other stuff I'm trying to manage and its draining. 2 further phone calls Ive not replied to as I've lost the will 'to live' in regards to this. Take to me court if you must and we can argue it out there.
20 August 2018
Apparently I'm supposed to be receiving an explanation [or proof or something] from the councils legal or finance department [I forget which what with others things still ongoing] as to why the court judgement doesn't apply to Camden council - not heard anything yet.
1 Jan 2019
Another recent letter from the housing rent service within the 'supporting communities' directorate about alleged 'rent arrears'. They are going around in circles and don't know what to do i think.
8 April 2021
Camden council landlord has pulled a 'sneaky underhanded' move on me by contacting the DWP and getting them to start making weekly deduction from my ESA payments. I'm not sure this is even legal/lawful so will have to look into it.
After all they they have put me through and they pull this stunt, how very typical.
21 April 2021
Ive found the actual court case where the overcharging by London councils [as landlords] was decided
Its the appeal court - this means that the ruling should in practice [i think] apply to all London councils who where joined with the scheme. I have asked Camden council via my then ward housing manager about the overcharging - Nov 2016 saw the councils position as such:
"We are still reviewing the situation ..... all water charges where set by Thames Water."
Camden says its collects the charges on behalf of Thames Water - payments made to Camden Council are put back into providing services sort of thing.
Thats the last I heard on the matter. If you scroll up this post you will see the entry dated 25 Aug 2017, taken from Kim Jones v Southwark -100,000s overcharged for water in London (dpglaw.co.uk)
states that:
" Whilst initially criticising the decision, Southwark Council has now announced that it will not appeal and will being repaying to tenants some of the unlawful charges.
“Thames Water has confirmed that it has similar arrangements with 69 local authorities and housing associations throughout its area covering 375,000 households. For households in occupation since 2001, they will have been overcharged around £700 to £1,000."
on 28 Oct 2020 Inside Housing reports that Court dismisses London council’s appeal over water charges ruling
Link to judgement
Friday 17 September 2021
I'm going through some of the minutes/documents from the 5 DMC's meetings that are up on camden councils website - to see if I can find any comments made by council about the water charge and I came across the below dated 6 dec 2017
" The Housing Revenue Account Financial Advisor outlined the background to the water charges issues, emphasising that Southwark Council had been found in court to be acting as water reseller and therefore obliged to pass on any savings in the cost of water.
Camden had a different contract with Thames Water, receiving an administration fee for collecting water rates from tenants with no suggestion that tenants were being charged more as a result of this arrangement.
Councillor Meric Apak, Cabinet Member for Better Homes, advised that the Council’s position could only be tested if someone decided to challenge it in court. DMC members remarked that making a legal challenge was financial onerous, but important for testing that the Council’s position was correct." [my emphasis]
31 march 2023
I think the above can/does also apply to local councils [as landlords] and so-called rent arrears [that arent rent arrears but service charges as in water overcharging]. The DWP don't contact the person whose benefit the local council etc want money from, to ask any questions get the persons view on the mater sort of thing.
